Comments on: Land of the free, except the gays http://willtoexist.com/land-of-the-free-except-the-gays_718/ scribblings from a deist transhumanist libertarian minarchist citizen soldier Tue, 27 Jul 2010 05:57:29 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0 By: Dwana http://willtoexist.com/land-of-the-free-except-the-gays_718/comment-page-1/#comment-19187 Dwana Tue, 13 Jun 2006 16:30:09 +0000 http://willtoexist.com/2006/06/land-of-the-free-except-the-gays#comment-19187 Hey Soldier! Boy, you really stirred things up with this gay marriage business!:) I appreciate your point of view, but I still think I'm right. You wrote that incestuous marriages wouldn't be allowed because children of such unions are likely to be deformed. Maybe that's true, but most deformed children are born to unrelated couples. So your argument, Trevor, is more about eugenics than marriage. And as for what the laws in Holland have to do with gays marrying in America, I was making that point that a society that accepts gay marriage has no basis for objecting to any kind of consensual sex act; also, Holland is the country that American liberals always hold up as a utopia that we should emulate. I just thought people should know what our future will look like. Gotta go back to work. SSS! Hey Soldier! Boy, you really stirred things up with this gay marriage business!:)
I appreciate your point of view, but I still think I’m right.

You wrote that incestuous marriages wouldn’t be allowed because children of such unions are likely to be deformed. Maybe that’s true, but most deformed children are born to unrelated couples. So your argument, Trevor, is more about eugenics than marriage.

And as for what the laws in Holland have to do with gays marrying in America, I was making that point that a society that accepts gay marriage has no basis for objecting to any kind of consensual sex act; also, Holland is the country that American liberals always hold up as a utopia that we should emulate. I just thought people should know what our future will look like.

Gotta go back to work. SSS!

]]> By: Curt http://willtoexist.com/land-of-the-free-except-the-gays_718/comment-page-1/#comment-18834 Curt Sun, 11 Jun 2006 01:22:06 +0000 http://willtoexist.com/2006/06/land-of-the-free-except-the-gays#comment-18834 Trevor, I appreciate your kind remarks about gay people. Although I am gay, I don't think most people see me as friendly. In fact, I'm a crank and a recluse, and I'm pretty lukewarm about gay marriage. Your blog's typical reader is probably somewhat more reasonable and tolerant than the average person, but even so their sentiments seem to be anti-gay on the whole. The fact that gay folks spend their whole lives among people like these, that don't like or respect them, probably accounts for the feelings of persecution you've observed. Anyway, I enjoy reading your blog. Trevor,

I appreciate your kind remarks about gay people.

Although I am gay, I don’t think most people see me as friendly. In fact, I’m a crank and a recluse, and I’m pretty lukewarm about gay marriage.

Your blog’s typical reader is probably somewhat more reasonable and tolerant than the average person, but even so their sentiments seem to be anti-gay on the whole. The fact that gay folks spend their whole lives among people like these, that don’t like or respect them, probably accounts for the feelings of persecution you’ve observed.

Anyway, I enjoy reading your blog.

]]> By: Elizabeth http://willtoexist.com/land-of-the-free-except-the-gays_718/comment-page-1/#comment-18794 Elizabeth Sat, 10 Jun 2006 18:37:25 +0000 http://willtoexist.com/2006/06/land-of-the-free-except-the-gays#comment-18794 The arguments against gay marriage remind me a lot of the fear-based propaganda that was used to derail the Equal Rights Amendment in the 70s. People like Phyllis Schlafly were claiming we would all have to use unisex public bathrooms if the ERA was passed. Needless to say, that was ridiculous. Just like claiming allowing gay marriage would mean we'd have to let fathers marry daughters, etc. It also reminds me of the fear-based propaganda that was unsuccessfully used to attempt to derail the Americans With Disabilities Act. People claimed business would go under because they wouldn't be able to meet its requirements. The ADA was passed and that didn't happen. It's as if people think these basic laws about equal rights will somehow snowball into something that no one would approve of...it's paranoid. The arguments against gay marriage remind me a lot of the fear-based propaganda that was used to derail the Equal Rights Amendment in the 70s. People like Phyllis Schlafly were claiming we would all have to use unisex public bathrooms if the ERA was passed. Needless to say, that was ridiculous. Just like claiming allowing gay marriage would mean we’d have to let fathers marry daughters, etc. It also reminds me of the fear-based propaganda that was unsuccessfully used to attempt to derail the Americans With Disabilities Act. People claimed business would go under because they wouldn’t be able to meet its requirements. The ADA was passed and that didn’t happen. It’s as if people think these basic laws about equal rights will somehow snowball into something that no one would approve of…it’s paranoid.

]]> By: Trevor http://willtoexist.com/land-of-the-free-except-the-gays_718/comment-page-1/#comment-18788 Trevor Sat, 10 Jun 2006 17:00:39 +0000 http://willtoexist.com/2006/06/land-of-the-free-except-the-gays#comment-18788 Dwana, There are several flaws in your argument. 1) Pregnancies from incest often result in severely handicapped children and that is the reason marriage is forbidden to incestual couples and the reason such relationships are taboo in most societies around the world. So incestual marriage is not the same as gay marriage, since gay people cannot have children from their union. 2) Sexually active teens have parents. Parents bear the primary responsibility for dealing with their children's behavior. I don't feel the need to involved you and I unless the teens are somehow causing an issue for you and I with their behavior. You say it's legal in Holland for adults to have sex with 12-year-olds. What does that have to do with allowing gays to marry in the United States so they can enjoy the same legal protections that hetersexual couples enjoy? Frankly, heterosexual couples are doing a terrible job with the institution of marriage. Maybe if we let gay people marry, national divorce rates will go down. That's the real problem here - people are so willing to manage other people's lives via their right to vote. That's not what freedom is. Unless you can demonstrate how gay people are using force or fraud against you in their desire to marry, I have to respectfully disagree that letting them do so will lead to a rise in incest, pedophilia or any other morally outrageous behavior as you suggest. Either way, I would say that we should leave it up to the states to decide this issue. Dwana,

There are several flaws in your argument.

1) Pregnancies from incest often result in severely handicapped children and that is the reason marriage is forbidden to incestual couples and the reason such relationships are taboo in most societies around the world. So incestual marriage is not the same as gay marriage, since gay people cannot have children from their union.
2) Sexually active teens have parents. Parents bear the primary responsibility for dealing with their children’s behavior. I don’t feel the need to involved you and I unless the teens are somehow causing an issue for you and I with their behavior.

You say it’s legal in Holland for adults to have sex with 12-year-olds. What does that have to do with allowing gays to marry in the United States so they can enjoy the same legal protections that hetersexual couples enjoy?

Frankly, heterosexual couples are doing a terrible job with the institution of marriage. Maybe if we let gay people marry, national divorce rates will go down.

That’s the real problem here – people are so willing to manage other people’s lives via their right to vote. That’s not what freedom is. Unless you can demonstrate how gay people are using force or fraud against you in their desire to marry, I have to respectfully disagree that letting them do so will lead to a rise in incest, pedophilia or any other morally outrageous behavior as you suggest.

Either way, I would say that we should leave it up to the states to decide this issue.

]]> By: Dwana http://willtoexist.com/land-of-the-free-except-the-gays_718/comment-page-1/#comment-18787 Dwana Sat, 10 Jun 2006 16:34:19 +0000 http://willtoexist.com/2006/06/land-of-the-free-except-the-gays#comment-18787 Hey Trev! I'll bite back! First, it's good to finally see a supporter of gay marriage acknowledge that if you change marriage for gays you have to change it for polygamists, too (even if you think they're silly). The problem is you arbitrarily stopped there. If consent makes a sex act right (and that's the underlying belief of the gay rights movement), and if every sex act must be approved of by the state or else the state is guilty of discrimination, then you must let a father/daughter or mother/son(or father/son, mother/daughter) couple marry. Such unions wouldn't be common, but that's the point. Gays claim that denying them legal marriage is discriminatory because they're a minority; people who practice incest are also a minority, so what's to stop them from using the same arguments that gays use? Nothing. Ditto for teens. Age of consent laws are to protect teens from potential exploitation, but we're increasingly becoming a society that takes it for granted that teens can and do consent to sex. So, if a teen is old enough to consent to sex with another teen, why isn't he or she old enough to consent to sex, or marriage, with an adult? I'm not saying that's a good thing. I'm saying that a society that allows gay marriage can't object to teen marriage, or polygamy, or incest, or pedophilia, or any other minority sexual behaviour without being grossly inconsistent. I don't want that kind of anything goes society, but that's where legalizing gay marriage will lead us. It's already happening in Holland, where it's legal for adults to have sex with 12 years olds. Sorry, Trevor, but that's not my kind of maturity. SSS! Hey Trev!

I’ll bite back!

First, it’s good to finally see a supporter of gay marriage acknowledge that if you change marriage for gays you have to change it for polygamists, too (even if you think they’re silly). The problem is you arbitrarily stopped there.

If consent makes a sex act right (and that’s the underlying belief of the gay rights movement), and if every sex act must be approved of by the state or else the state is guilty of discrimination, then you must let a father/daughter or mother/son(or father/son, mother/daughter) couple marry. Such unions wouldn’t be common, but that’s the point. Gays claim that denying them legal marriage is discriminatory because they’re a minority; people who practice incest are also a minority, so what’s to stop them from using the same arguments that gays use? Nothing.

Ditto for teens. Age of consent laws are to protect teens from potential exploitation, but we’re increasingly becoming a society that takes it for granted that teens can and do consent to sex. So, if a teen is old enough to consent to sex with another teen, why isn’t he or she old enough to consent to sex, or marriage, with an adult? I’m not saying that’s a good thing. I’m saying that a society that allows gay marriage can’t object to teen marriage, or polygamy, or incest, or pedophilia, or any other minority sexual behaviour without being grossly inconsistent. I don’t want that kind of anything goes society, but that’s where legalizing gay marriage will lead us. It’s already happening in Holland, where it’s legal for adults to have sex with 12 years olds. Sorry, Trevor, but that’s not my kind of maturity.

SSS!

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